Episode 3: he deserves sunshine

#coffeeshopau #fluff #lightangst #homophobia

This week on Sex Sells, em and rainbow talk about episode three of Heated Rivalry, "Hunter", where they take a break from Hollanov to talk about Scott Hunter and the closet  he and Kip are forced into by a homophobic sport and society.

Article about Game Changers development through fanfic.

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At the beginning of this episode, em draws attention to the murders of seven Trans people that happened over the past two months. The discussion is brief, but heavy. To learn more about the people lost to anti-Trans violence, please use the links below: 

Davonta Curtis - April 5th 2026, age 32

Aleanna Belcher - April 17th 2026, age 31

Luca Redbeard - April 18th 2026, age 39 - stepping between an altercation

Juniper Blessing May 10th 2026, age 19

Eryka Caldwell May 17th 2026, age 41

Murry Foust May 25th 2026, age 22

Persia Conway May 25th, age 33

They all deserved sunshine, and so do you. 

Intro/Outro courtesy of magpiemusic on pixabay

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Hello everyone, this is Rainbow The She. And I'm M, and welcome to Sex Cells, a Heated Rivalry podcast. Today we're talking about episode three. Hunter. Hunter. The name of the serial killer AU fanfiction I will be naming after this episode. Oh my god, I'm so excited to read that one day. Um, before we jump into the episode, you know, in this episode we get this line of you deserve sunshine. And that has become a bit of a trend on TikTok right now, with people from the queer community sharing disappointing texts from family members that disapprove of them and whatnot, and then going on to say, I deserve sunshine. And I just feel like, you know, we're in Pride Month. We're doing this on Pride Month on purpose. And with the US being in the early stages of a transgenocide and lawmakers actively trying to rebrand this as nuclear family month. Which ask anyone from a nuclear family. We don't need a month. Uh, I'm a family abolitionist. Um I would actually argue that one man, one woman with uh however many children hasn't really worked.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

No, I think it's not great. As somebody with, you know, two parents who worked, um, and often they had very little patience um for me at the end of their long work day. I mean, I've always said if we're gonna have a kid, we we should be in a polycule. I think it just makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Yeah. But that just made that's just really put an extra fire in my belly. I'm very angry, as I'm sure a lot of you people are as well. With that being said, as well, I wanted to say the names of there have been seven in the last two months. Uh, I'm concentrating right now, but there has been more in this year alone of trans people who have been killed. And I just want to say their names. April 5th was Devonta Curtis, age 32. On April 17th, Elena Belcher, age 31. April 18th. And this one was um, they were stepping in between an altercation of two other people, but Luca Redbeard, age 39, Juniper Blessing, age 19, May 10th, Erica Cal Erica Caldwell, May 17th, age 41, Murray Foss, uh, May 25th, age 22, and Persia Conway, May 25th, age 33.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

I think we can take a moment of silence for those seven people.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

And a lot of these people are so young. And of course, black trans women in particular are disproportionately affected, so that can't remain unsaid.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Um and these are just reported deaths that we know of, reported killings, I will say. Um, I have done like a transgender day of remembrance board of names of people all across the world, um, and that was hundreds and hundreds of names, and the the heaviness of that is, you know, I think should be highlighted. These are people who we didn't know them, they were strangers to us, but they were just trying to live their their truest and authentic selves, and they, you know, the world did not treat them kindly, and it's it's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Yeah. And with that, I want to finish with a very popular quote from Dan Savage. During the darkest days of the AIDS crisis, we buried our friends in the morning, we protested in the afternoon, and we danced all night. The dance kept us in the fight because it was the dance we were fighting for. And I just, I know it's so hard these days, especially. I feel like we're more separated than ever, and it feels more hopeless than ever, but I think that's a good reminder of what we're what we're fighting for. Um, you know, bigots will die, uh, and trans people will continue to exist. So fuck all of you.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Yes, trans people have existed for all of human history and they will continue to exist, no matter what any government or any single person tries to do.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

And no matter what your shitty parents say, or the kids at school, or dumbasses online that are probably bots anyway, you deserve sunshine.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yes, absolutely. Thank you for bringing that to our attention, Emma.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

No problem. Yeah.

unknown 4:25

I know.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

It's hard. It's so hard. How do we transition? Well, now we're gonna dance by talking about this episode. Because we have uh this this is a bit of a tonal shift. We're talking about where after those two intense weeks, after we didn't kiss, we are now shifting gears to Scott Hunter.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yes, and it was so interesting. I want to talk for just a second the week leading up to this episode, being a non-book reader. Because, you know, so many of us who I think didn't read the books, didn't know what was coming, didn't know that Scott Hunter was going to get a storyline like this. We were just like, oh my god, what's gonna happen next? Like, we can't wait for for Hollander and Rosinoff, and then we get a completely new storyline. And I think some people were upset about that. Oh, for sure. But and I I at this point I trusted the creators of this show that, like, if we were getting this, it was for a reason.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

That would be really bad storytelling if there if this episode had no point to it.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah, and I was just like, no, I after we didn't even kiss, I was like, they know what they're doing, they're doing this purposefully, and we don't get the cottage without Skip. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

No, there's absolutely a reason, and I think it's so interesting to see the complete like it's a very different kind of dynamic because with Scott and Kip, they have no problem admitting to each other pretty quickly that they're into each other. And it was honestly very refreshing to see Scott at his most lesbian saying, I want you in my house, I want you to be here when I come home in my glasses, barefoot. Like I respect it. But it they also face a similar problem with Connor and Hudson Connor, Ilya and Hudson, where no, they're not talking about their feelings, but it's because they have to hide. Whereas Scott and Kip talk about their feelings, but they still have feel this need to, at least Scott, to hide.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

So yeah, let's get into it. But before we dive directly in, what are our tags for this episode?

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Oh my gosh, the AO3 fics are uh coffee shop AU, fluff, fluff, I don't know. What if I didn't we're looking at your name? I was wondering, I was like, why is she just looking at me? Maybe it'll be on your face. No, but coffee shop AU, fluff, liked angst, and homophobia.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Yes. Okay, so yeah, I think we kind of already talked about this a little bit, but why is this episode necessary and why do you think it's right here?

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Well, again, I love that this is a spoiler-free bl uh blog podcast. Um so, you know, the whole point of this is so that they have their big public kiss, which gives Ilya especially the confidence to be like, I'm coming to the cottage. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yes, absolutely. And I I like that we've seen Scott. We got to see him in the first two episodes as just like a little like highlight. And I'm sure for fans of the books, they were like absolutely squealing when they saw him. For us, it was just a little bit like, who is this guy? And I think we both clapped like he's probably gay. Right. Um, but now we get confirmation because yeah, you start off this episode in Sochi, um, and then you get Vaughn saying it's dangerous for people like that. And then you see you get the the beginnings of I'll believe in anything, like zeroing in on Scott. And I love that the the visual storytelling that we're like, and now we're gonna focus on this guy, and realizing, you know, that the that moment in Sochi happens after everything we're about to discuss with Kip. And those feelings that Scott has been dealing with. Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

And Scott, you know, as as Ilya loves to point out, is older than our rookies, so he's been in this world for longer, which is why, you know, he was able to clock what the fuck was happening between them right from the drump. He's like, Oh, I've told a man my room number a time or two. Well, do that's a question I have. Do we think he has? Oh, actually, no, I feel like he said he's kind of not really dated too much.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

He definitely's never brought anyone home. Like he brings Kip home, you know, kind of in towards the middle of the episode, I would say. Um, I don't know. I I doubt he's ever hooked up with another player, at least maybe not professionally, maybe when he was younger. I mean, you know, there's no like talk of him being inexperienced with Kip, but I don't think this is the kind of show that would necessarily show him fumbling with it. Um, so yeah, I think it it's interesting. Like, do we think he's had any kind of dalliances? Do we think he's maybe like you like that? I did. Have you had a dalliance? I has he had it because I it is hard. It's like who would he have done that with? I mean, and I'm I'm very like sex positive, sex worker positive. So it's like, has he like paid for it before just to have that experience? Um, we we just don't know, we don't get that information. Do we want to start with the coffee shop? Yeah, let's talk about this fanfic and fanfic ass introduction.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Mary, so obviously this is a smoothie shop, but coffee shop AU is a very popular trope in fanfic, and it's usually a fluffier kind of story where you know you put your two favorite characters, one of them's a barista, and one of them's a customer, and they fall in love slowly over time, and that's precisely what the whole like beginning of this episode is all about. Is Scott comes in for a smoothie and they're and Kip is asleep on the counter.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

With his art book, because he's a struggling art student, which that's also very like fanfic coffee shop AU is like he wants to, you know, be an art historian.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

And there's been a there's a little bit of a sugar daddy thing kind of low-key going on with Scott.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Um and I do want to talk about the name of the smoothie shop is Straw Plus Berry. And do we think that's a is that a dick and balls reference? Is that a dick and butt reference?

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Probably. I would have to say the whole conversation about adding half a banana, which is banana not a staple smoothie ingredient, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Meanwhile, while they're having this conversation, there's a big ass fruit bowl with the thickest fucking carrot you've ever seen, like with lemons on either side of it. Production designers, I see you and I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Now, is this where I complain about Kibb's casting?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

I think I think we might as well jump into it right here.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

I will say, I think this episode is I have the most critiques of it. And one of the big ones is Kipps casting. And I'm not even going like this, isn't anything personal against the actor.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Robbie GK.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Yes, but I just feel like why did the struggling art student have to be just as buff as Scott? It's starting to get a little same-sies, and it was one thing when they were all hockey players, but you have a struggling college student who canonically has a really big dad, so like he could have been chubby, he could have been underweight, he could have just had an average body. But I think him being buff just was kind of eye roll-inducing to me. It kind of took me out of it. I wasn't getting art student from him really at all.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

And I do want to say, I don't think, because I did see people saying, like, that's just so unrealistic. Why would like a brewerista look like that? And I think in the male gay community, there can be this, like, there could there are guys who just like go and work out and try to look that hot. Just in general, I think this is more, this is honestly a broader critique of the industry in general, and how this show is not subverting that in any way.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

No, and this was really like, yeah, I think you have a point there, but this was like their one chance to have a little bit of body diversity, and they completely ignored it.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Yeah, I think, yeah, absolutely. He's ripped, he's like stocky. I'd say he's broader than Scott is. Yeah. Um, even if not, if he doesn't have the height. And I think they have that moment when they are hooking up when he says, You're so beautiful, and Kip says, I can't believe you're even into me. And it's like, have you looked in a mirror?

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Right. There's like a whole struggle that could have been there that like a lot of I feel like his character just being this like beautiful model gets taken away from for me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, and I think we're two people who like we don't necessarily fit the standard, industry standard of beauty for for women in any way. And I think with men, I think there's been a shift. I think in like the 70s, 80s, like, I think men could look kind of however, and as long as they were funny enough or talented enough, like it it didn't matter. But I think we have reached a point where instead of us looking at beauty standards for women and being like, oh, we should like let women look like normal people, was like, no, now men also have to look like that. Yeah. And I think, you know, this kind of almost connects to the fan fiction origin story of this, where like I think the Marvel movies are where we really started to see that, where like you had these superheroes where they had to have like 12 fucking abs and like they had to look like just this like zero percent body fat, and these like I would say just really unattainable standards of beauty that women have already been struggling with, and now men are having to struggle with it. And we've seen, you know, we've seen upticks in eating disorders for men, and you know, this show had an opportunity to show us a more like regular-looking guy.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

And there's a lot of fat phobia in the gay male community, no fats, no femmes is a whole thing, like yeah. So I I think that was a lost opportunity. Was that the director's decision? Was that a studio? Because there is a lot of pressure to be beautiful on camera, obviously. Everyone has to have fucking iPhone face and it's boring as hell. Yeah, so that that was a big complaint for me, honestly. I just felt like it wasn't real.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

And I'm sure some people would say, well, nobody wants to see two normal looking people. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

I don't, I I don't try I don't believe I think uh just a few people say, well, no one wants to see it. That doesn't make it fucking true.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Yeah, please. I think plenty of people would be fine. I think I think going on like seeing on TV people who look like ever average everyday people, I think that's awesome. I think that's great. And I think and maybe that will continue to be true as long as the industry keeps perpetuating it, but until we get a few brave shows out there who are willing to show normal looking people.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Literally, I'm not even like he didn't, he could just have been an average-looking dude, you know? Because I I also I tried to see, because we haven't read the books yet, but I tried to find descriptors of Kip, and I think she just kind of talks about his face mostly. So it's like, girl, you had options, but whatever.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

I think the love scenes would just be be just as beautiful and just as moving.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

And I just think it's interesting if there was a difference in in body diversity, they're like, Yeah, I don't need a carbon copy of the same looking fucking dude.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's one of my biggest cr critiques of this episode. One of the things that, like you said, made me like roll my eyes, like, okay. Yeah. Um, and like yeah, like Scott says to Kip, like, you're so beautiful, and it's like, well, yeah, he looks like what men are supposed to look like on TV. Right. Okay, so I think that's it for the body top. Yes. Um, do we want to talk a little bit? I kind of mentioned already the fan fiction aspect. Do we want to talk about like the origin of this? I was gonna, yes, I was thinking about that and then lost it, so thank you.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Because this is based off it's not quite based off of it. Yeah, take it away because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

So, and I found uh an article from Salon about this where Rachel Reed talks about it, and I'll link to that in the show notes so everyone else can read it. But basically what happened is Rachel Reed in like 2016 was working on this story, was reading a lot of fanfiction at the time, and wanted feedback on the original story she was working on. Didn't realize that you can post original works on AO3, which y'all, if you didn't know, there's original works on there. But so she turned it into a stucky fanfiction, and that's Steve Rogers, Captain America, and Bucky Barnes from Marvel.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Oh, so it was an original story.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

It was an original story, it was turned into a fanfiction, and then after getting feedback, because AO3 does, there's like an instant feedback loop often, and you can get critiques from people and see what people say in the comments. And so I think she used that as kind of just a way to maybe get like some beta readers, which like I think that's fine. There are definitely people out there who have fanfictions that they turn into traditionally published books. You just file the serial numbers off, change some names. But so we see we have Scott Hunter as like the Steve Rogers, and then we have Kip as the Bucky Barnes, and I do wonder if that's why Kip is named Kip, because that's a stupid fucking name. Um, and and they say it's short for Christopher, which like okay, and that happens all the time with names, language changes over time, whatever. But I was like in my head when I heard this was Stucky fanfiction, well, of course, because you have to have the Bucky character also have a stupid name.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Well, you're the the dog Kip from the childhood books. Oh, I don't think I've read those. That's what I think of as Kip.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Um, so yeah, so that's what happened. Um, and and I think that's interesting because I think the lore around it was like, oh, this started as a stucky fanfiction that she then filed the numbers on. And I think it's interesting that it has like a slightly different story. And I just I really think it's funny that she didn't think she could put an original work on there because she could have just put this on as game changers and then deleted it later.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

I feel like that's a better way to get a more widespread audience because that's the thing about fanfiction, is like you are writing your own story, but you're using already beloved characters. Whereas trying to get someone to write a read your OCs when you don't have an established name might be harder.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

That's very true. I mean, I've definitely thought about putting original works on AO3, but like with the expectation that like probably won't get as many hits as my fanfictions do. But like I just want to share my love, my art, and my love of storytelling with whoever wants to read it, and I don't want to have to go through the gauntlet of traditional publishing.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

So I just this is the one thing I really love about fanfic and what I'm getting scared of as it gets more in the mainstream, and you see people wanting AO3 to have an algorithm, like the fanfiction is is from love, pure love of the game, of like this story spoke to me, or I already like writing stories and these characters inspired me. So I'm writing it out of love, and then people are commenting it and reading it because they want to. Like, I don't know. I just really feel like it's the most community-based, like art, like collective.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

I was gonna say it's community-led, it's community-focused, and I think that's that's beautiful. And I think in a world where people are sharing their fix on social media and they want to get like a bunch of kudos and they want to get a bunch of comments. I think sometimes people feel like this is my chance to like go viral in some way, and you know, that's people's choices. But I think I I think AO3 is staying strong of like we will not have an algorithm, like we will not, like, no, we aren't going to have an app. Like, they don't want to have to cow to advertisers. That's something that happened with fanfiction.net.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

People literally want capitalism to fucking ruin it, and hopefully AO3 stays strong, but even if they didn't, I think something would eventually rise from the ashes.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Yeah. Because you can't stop the beat. You simply can't. Okay, so yeah, I think that's the the fan fiction of it all and the origins. Do we want to? I think the bulk of this conversation, at least for me, is really gonna be about the homophobia that Scott has to deal with and how that affects his relationship with Kip.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Yes, he is very much in the closet in his mind and in his heart. And even I thought the the set design choice was kind of interesting because when you enter Scott's apartment, right away it's this bookshelf in the way, but it kind of gave me the sensation of bars.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Ooh, I like that. I hadn't thought about that, but you're absolutely right. And there's this like barrier between like the entranceway and like the interior of the apartment, and he has these big open windows, but yet so high up, you know, he's got like a probably like a penthouse apartment.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Um it's just like he's open with Kip, but closed to the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I think I'm just gonna say right off the bat, that moment towards the end when Kip goes to get the suit that Scott left for him, and it's in the closet, and the light is shining from inside the closet, but it's dark around him. It's like you can only be in the light behind closed doors. You have to be in secret.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

And we really see the way that that weighs on Kip throughout the episode. And I think one thing I really appreciate about this show, just in general, with both um Holinov and with Skip, is that like I don't really feel no one's being a villain, no one's and doing anything intentionally to hurt anybody. And even the things that they're doing that do hurt each other, it's so understandable. Right. And you go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Well, and this is another difference between the couples where Holonov both have a reason to be in the closet, whereas Kip's just a regular guy and he doesn't really have a reason to be in the closet.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

He's open, he's got a great support system with his friends that we meet. He has Maria, girl. Girl, his dad is amazing. Yeah, his his best friend Sean, he has like a com he has the gay bar that he spends time at. He has the community that Scott doesn't have as a queer person. Scott has the hockey community, he has his hockey family.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

And we learn, like, from his speech, you know, his parents died when he was 12. So this is really all he has. And when all you have is your homophobic house, that's even worse.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Yeah, and I think that connects so well to episode five when he's on the ice. And we'll we'll get more into it when we talk about that. But you really see how like him seeing hockey as his family, like it is his job. And like it's kind of why I like balk against the idea of like, well, your like your workplace, this is your family. It's like, no, this is my workplace. I'm I'm being paid to be here, and you can care about the people you work with and you can feel a connection with them and even want to spend time with them outside of work. But at the end of the day, like, that's where you make your money. That's not necessarily where you find love.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

No, no, hockey's not waiting for you in your glasses at night.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah, you find love in a smoothie shop with the grossest-looking watery blueberry smoothie you've ever seen. So I want to talk about like when Scott and Kip first meet. I think we can go a little bit more chronologically through their relationship this way because you can tell. I think Francois Arnault, who plays Scott, does a good job of showing like he's interested in Kip. He's like, wow, look at this cutie. Right. Look at this Greek god of a man. Um, and and he's like, he's trying to be a little flirty, and like Kip doesn't really know what's going on. And I do love after Scott leaves um the first time they. Meet how they have like the straight dude bro coming in to reveal that he's a hockey player. Girl. Yes, Maria. And and don't worry, we will we will talk about Maria and Elena later. Um, but then yeah, and we get Scott, like he continues to come back. I know you have some things you want to say about the serial killer banter.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

They just do it a little too much for me. Scott goes into a little too much detail and it seems to be a little too interested in the serial killer aspect of it all. Like it's an interesting uh angle to take for the first flirty days. I think that's very 2016-2017. Well, yeah, because he's doing like, he's obviously doing, well, this is like what, 2014 still. So he's doing like these BuzzFeed articles that people were obsessed with back in the day. I was definitely picking that up, but it's just like, you know, obviously it's just harmless banter, but how funny would it be if this became a serial killer AU? And Hunter kidnaps him and brings him back. Cause like, yeah, the whole thing of like, I want you to stay with me, like this could take a sinister turn real quick, and this could be obsession.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Yeah. Oh my god, honestly. Well, Kip makes that point of like, you know, he makes that joke of like all those serial killer jokes you were trying to warn me. Um, so I want to talk about that conversation. And first of all, just comparing again to Hollanoff, we have Kip thinking that he should leave in the middle of the night. He's like, we've had sex, he's asleep, let me slip out. This hockey player doesn't want to stay, doesn't want me to stay. And Scott does ask him to stay, and it's very sweet. And then in the morning they have this conversation because Kip's just like, I should probably go. And Scott says, What if you stayed? And he says, I know it's fucked up. I know I'm fucked up. And I think what's happening here is like, for one thing, I understand where Kip's coming from, where it's like, wow, like who hasn't wanted to feel that special? Who wasn't had who doesn't want to feel like I'm the first person who you felt so drawn to that you broke your rule for me? But then also, you know, he can't go farther than that with it. And so he is asking Kip, he's like, stay here and be my secret lover. Yeah, be my bird in a cage. Yeah, and I think Kip, and he the chemistry is there and he does like Scott, and I think he does want this. Yeah, but then we see throughout the episode he's draw, he's withdrawing from his friends, he's not going home to see his dad. And I think that's something people said where they were like, I mean, Kip could have gone home to see his dad. And it's like narratively, no, he couldn't, because he then he would have to lie to him, and we see how close they are. Kip doesn't want to lie to his dad, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:26

And like, could could they have had maybe a conversation of hey, can I at least I can I at least tell my dad and my friends? But maybe Scott would have said no. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Well, because even because Elena, um, the goat of this episode. Yes, our woman of the episode. Yes, she like figures it out, and Kip has to like say that to Scott, and you can tell that Scott's like worried about that a little bit. He's like, Ooh, ooh, I don't know how to feel about that.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Yeah, I yeah, I think Kip kind of got the message of like, we're not telling anybody.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Yeah, absolutely. He's yeah, because uh the first thing Scott says is like, well, she can be discreet, right? Right, and it's like that's right, this is a discretion.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

And the one time they try to leave the house together, it does not go well. And it it honestly, when the scene was playing out, I was like, oh my god, Scott, like Jesus, you could be two guys looking at art pieces together, because you know, they try and go and he's shushing him, and like he's very paranoid, honestly making it even more suspicious by the way he's acting. But then he gets home and you, you know, he apologizes, and it's just that fear. Yeah. And that breaks my heart because I think anyone who's been publicly gay or queer in any way has known that fear in some level, or that paranoia in some level, and especially, I mean, he is a people know who he is.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

He was recognized walking out of the smoothie shop. And if you don't mind me bringing this up, I don't know if we've made it clear to our listeners that we're a couple. Oh my god, and uh I meant for us to talk about Well, we talked about something much more important at the beginning of the episode, and I didn't want to like transition from that into like, and we're a cute couple, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Well, yeah, yes, because you know, you guys, we've done a podcast before, and I think we just didn't think like in our intro. I know we talked about that we're gay, but I don't think we made it clear that we're gay with each other, and then last episode we were just like dropping relationship and sex lore. So we're a couple, we've been together for four plus years. We're engaged, we're in love.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

We're in love, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Um are you gonna tell the story? I think you're gonna tell with the handholding.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

So, and we'd started out as long distance, um, and then I came to visit you where you were living on the East Coast, and we kind of spent that whole weekend just like in your room. Um, it very much was like the Scott and Kip story. Um, but we were like, let's go take a walk. Um, let's let's, you know, let's go be in the sunshine. We deserve sunshine. We deserve sunshine, let's go take a walk. Um, we've been horizontal for a while now. Um, and you know, and I have, I was we I think we were both like out, but I was your first girlfriend. And I'd had queer relationships before. And you had never, when you know, when you'd walked down the street holding hands with somebody, it was a man, yeah. Um, which is a different experience. Um and you had some concerns. And do you want to talk about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Well, yeah, it's so interesting. There's a lot of bisexual discourse always online, and it makes me want to freaking blow my brains out. Um, but I am I'm somewhere in that umbrella. I can't quite land anywhere yet. But yes, I've dated men and women, and you know, when you're dating men, you get invalidated as bisexual. It's like, well, even my own ex-boyfriend was like, well, you've never even dated a girl, so and that sucks, but nothing quite compares to there is that fee that like that I now have to think because you just never know, and you hear stories online about people who are attacked just for holding hands, or you know, just being pub visibly gay, and so for the first time ever, like little things too, like having polite conversation with my hairdresser. If I mention that my partner's a girl, will you treat me differently? Or like us being in an Uber together, if we hold hands, will we be killed? Like, it is a whole new world.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Kiki's being homophobic.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Kiki's being fucking homophobic right now. She's trying to silence me.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

She loves to do it. Yeah, and I think I'm very like queer as in fuck you.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Yeah, right, right. And I think it can be easy to be like that until someone hits us.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Yeah, absolutely. And well, and I mean I'll say when I was first, you know, coming into my queer identity, I lived in a place where it wasn't quite as easy to be queer. And at work, you know, there was somebody that I never told that I never came out to before she left that job because I we had a great like relationship, work relationship, and I wasn't sure how that was gonna change if she knew that about me. And, you know, these are just like, you know, we're, you know, we're nobodies in the eyes of the world. And for Scott Hunter, captain of the New York City hockey team, you know, a USA Olympics team captain, as that shitty uh podcast mentions, it is a big risk for him to do that. And he does have to worry that he's going to lose everything, lose his family. And, you know, I can see it being difficult to give all that up for somebody that you met two months ago.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

The whole situation isn't fair to either of them because homophobia isn't fucking fair. Like, yeah, Scott shouldn't have to come out just for Kip, but like they just shouldn't have to be hiding in the fucking first place.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah. Is now a good time to get into Elena and her role in the story?

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Yes, beautiful, um, amazing Elena who takes no shit from I love I can't wait to read the book to get to know her a little bit because her entrance is so great. You can tell she knows these people. She comes in with takeout, she tells the bartender to shut the fuck up and turn on hike hockey. I'm excited to to get to know her more. But she is she's Kip's like bestie and she's really a rock for him in throughout this situation.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Yeah, she's the one who kind of like helps Kip like figure shit out where it just like wins his next home game. Are you working? Like, let's get this worked out, like before they get together, and then after they get together, she's the one who like because he tries with his friends, like they know that like you have a boyfriend now, keep the boyfriend on TV. But he's like, I don't have a boyfriend, but with Elena, she's like gives him one look and he's like, Okay. And I love that conversation they have in the bar where he says, I've never been happier, and the look on his face is not happy. He looks sad, he's like, I've never been happier, and I can't share that happiness with anyone.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Does this take us to do we want to hop forward to the ball where they have Elena has a conversation with Scott?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Yeah, let's talk about the event. This is actually mentioned early in the episode where she's like, Hey, you're still coming with me to that event to Kip, and he's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Um, and so the event comes up and it's like some sort of like charity thing for a charity that Scott supports, I think like a hockey school or something. And Elena's company is one of the sponsors, and so she brings Kip as her date, um, which I think is interesting. Do we think Elena's a mean lesbian? I hope so. That's what I want. And so, and she has a conversation with Scott. She like pulls him to the side, and I think she's being a very good friend to Kip here.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

I just love how she moves. I love her confidence. She's like, You're dancing with me, big boy.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Yes, and and I've heard some some discourse, like listeners. I listened to two the two uh big like straight guy hockey podcasts who were talking about this show. And in both of those shows, the guys like felt like maybe Elena was too mean, even with like the Kyle thing, which I'm like, okay, yeah, she said, shut the fuck up, Kyle. I think that's how they talk to each other. She also brought him food, like right.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

It was clear to me that like this is just her personality, but I also think women, especially women of color, are read to be a lot more mean just because they're not being smiley and over the top nice. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

And I do want to say before we go any further that the actress who plays Elena, Nadine Babha, great actress, beautiful. She's supposed to be in that Crave show Slow Pitch about the lesbian softball players. Which I don't know if that's airing yet. I don't know if it's gonna come to HBO, but like I would like to watch that for sure. Um, and I just think she does a really good job with this character of like showing that, like, yeah, she's a hard ass, but she cares. And I like the speech that she gives to Scott, and I like that she is being honest with him in a way that Kip isn't willing to be.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Exactly. Kip needs to have this conversation, but he won't because he he loves Scott and he's trying to do the right thing by him.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Yes, and be understanding, but he is putting Scott and his feelings and his career before Kip's own feelings.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Yeah, he's abandoning himself, and that's not a virtuous, it's never virtuous to abandon yourselves, people. Sorry, I know that's not like the nice thing to think, but yeah, I think, you know, I wrote like was Elena being unfair or not? It's an unfair situation, and I think she was right to say that. And you know, she tells Scott uh Kip deserves sunshine, and so do you. Like, it's not just to like she's not shitting on Scott for hiding away Kip. She's saying, like, he's unhappy, he's not gonna tell you that, but like, you know, you guys don't deserve to go on like this.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Yeah, and do you think that this is the first time that anyone has ever said to Scott, like, it you it's okay for you to be you and you should be allowed to be out. And I also don't think this is her saying, well, you should come out of the closet so you can be with Kip.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

No, it's more just letting her know he's not happy in the closet with you.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

And because it's him going back into the closet. Yeah. Which can be a very hard thing to do. And I don't think I don't think it's ever fair to ask somebody to go back into the closet, and I don't think it's ever fair to ask somebody to come out of the closet.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

You have to kind of decide are you gonna hide with them or are you gonna say that this isn't for you and move on.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

And we see that with the conversation at the end. And I really like the way this is edited where we get the conversation between Kip and Scott, where you know, Kip's trying to like get Scott to come to the bar for his birthday, just as his friend, just as a customer who, you know, buy he buys smoothies from him, but Scott like knows he's like, Elena already knows, like, and and I think he knows if we're in public together, I'm not gonna be able to make it seem like we're not together. You know, I can't hide my feelings for you. And Scott says to him, he's just like, he says, just for a few more years. Years is a long time to ask somebody to wait for that. And I'm really proud of Kip for saying, I can't do that. And deciding to go home to his dad and to cry to his dad. And we get, as he's leaving, then we get the speech from Scott that explains the whole family thing and really informs the decision that Kip has made where he's like, I I would have if we continued this, I would have to ask you to choose between me and the life you've been living for the past two decades, probably. And I can't do that, so I'm taking myself out of the equation. And then they stay apart for three years.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah. Until 2017. Right. Well, and so and and we get this shot of Scott watching the birthday happen from outside the window. Serial killer, once again. Um, but yeah, no, it's deeper than just like, oh, I'm afraid of the homophobia. It's like this is my life and my family, and I don't want to let them down.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

Yeah, it's sad. It's it's it's very sad. Should we talk about those the two glimpses we get of our boys? I think it would be uh uh despicable of us not to mention because while it's sad we don't get them, we do get one moment basically each, and they're so great. Well, we do, I love that they put um one of Shane's commercials on in the background of the bar that that was a nice little touch. Yes, absolutely. So first we get Ilya, which I really love somewhat analyzed because you know it's at the end of the game, and Ilya's saying, I love you, I love you, to all of his thing, all of his things, all of his fellow players. And it's so funny how you know, jokingly he can be affectionate with men. Yes, but not for real C's. And then what he pokes at Scott, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:44

He well, he he pokes at Scott, and it's interesting because that's also like you can be playful with men, even like a little sexually playful, because he like says to Scott, he's like, Oh, if only you could play at home every night, like it'd be better for you. And Scott says, Go fuck yourself, Rosinoff. And he says, it would be better if you were there because Ilya kind of wants to fuck Scott Hunter. 100%. Um, I also want to just say the like I love you thing. Like, yeah, it's like it's it's silly and whatever, but I think that's also like he's he's a caretaker. He is loving, like he is, he's like, I love you, good job. And I saw somebody who said, like, if I was the player that Ilya said good job to instead of I love you, I'd kill myself. I would think about that later. I like to think that he said good job, I love you, like to that player. I don't think he would leave that out for anyone. Everyone's getting an I love you.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

And you know, poor Scott, because he's had, you know, they the whole beginning of this episode, this like podcast he's listening to about how he's having a hard season because he's not living his truth. Um, so he's already got that pressure because then we get poor little Shane, who it seems like it's baby's first chirp on the ice. Like he literally skates up after beating them with a big smile, and he's like, What does he even say? He says, Next time we play, why don't you show up? Yeah, yeah. And it's very much like, Did I do a good job with my chirp? And Scott decides to hit with the nuclear launch of like you starting to sound like him.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

And Shane notices he's like, he picks up on immediately what he's saying, and then it cuts to the fight, which I love that. I've definitely definitely read a couple of fics of like Ilya watching that and then texting Shane and being like, What did Scott Hunter say to you? You look like an angry kitten. Because Scott might as well have said, spit his cum out before you talk to me sideways. Like, honestly. And so, and I love that moment. I think like I love an outburst from Shane, but I want to talk a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

I was just gonna say, and in the book, actually, it's Ilya and him who get into an altercation, not Shane, but I thought that was a really cute twist that the show did.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Yeah, I don't know book Shane, I don't know what he's capable of, but I think for TV show Shane, the Shane that I've met over the last two episodes, that totally checks out to me. Yeah, he absolutely would do that. Um, and I just want to talk about what I think is happening here with Scott and Holanoff. And I think Scott knows that he's gay and he's known for a while, but he never thought he'd be able to explore that part of himself until well after his hockey career was over. And now he sees these two young rookies and he's picked up on the fact that something very gay is happening with them. And then two away games in a row, he gets beaten by these up-and-coming queers who are doing something he would never have thought to do when he was their age. And I think he's a little resentful of them, especially now that he has someone that he wants to be gay with so badly. And he's like, I never got to have this thing that you guys are having. And probably, you know, and I I think he knows the um like the danger that comes with doing what they're doing, but it's still probably like, I am like, because you know, he he's like a thousand years old, yeah, um, accordingly, but he is older and it he's just now getting to experience this. And like we see he's so excited to be with Kip, but he's gotta keep him a secret. He can't like have him with him. All he can have are his blueberry banana socks. I'm so glad you brought those up.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Yes. Cause yeah, because um Kip gives him these the banana socks, which are adorable, but then we end the episode with a very in-your-face metaphor of him pulling his hockey socks over the banana socks before a game, showing that he's hiding his true selves.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

And I thought this was interesting that he is putting his right sock on his left foot, which is something he talked about with the superstitions with Kip early on. And I loved that little moment of like, because it's the gold medal game, so he's being a little, it's just science. But yeah, I do, I love the metaphor of that. And it just ends on such a sad note, and then we're just left to be like, oh, okay, just two episodes in a row, three episodes in a row of like Jacob Tierney, why are you making me feel bad? I know. Um, okay, this has definitely been a shorter one so far, but I don't know if we have anything else to talk about with this episode.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

The melting emoji was not around in 2014. Oh yeah. Yeah, he uses the melting emoji, and I was like, there's no way.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Yeah, I feel like I remember when that came on the scene and people started using it, but you know, a little a little temporal anachronism is fine with me.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Okay, yeah, so that's episode three. I will say, like I said, this had my most critiques. I also felt like I felt like the acting and the writing is a bit weaker in this episode than I I really feel like, you know, not only do we get to see the stark differences between the dynamics of Holinov and Skip, but I think you really see what strong actors Connor and Hudson are in comparison to other people. And how strong their chemistry is. Yeah, it maybe it's even more just the chemistry than anything because Skip is cute, but like I only need the one episode.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Yeah, and I think also the fact that we are getting one book condensed into a single episode, we really lose a lot. And I will say the first time I watched this, I didn't buy as quickly that Scott and Kip were falling in love necessarily in those two months. It seemed like they really wanted to like, it seemed like they definitely had the sexual attraction, and it felt like that was the focus. Like this to me felt like the most like sex sells in a way, where it's like it's not so much the sex necessarily informing anything about the characters or about their story, it's literally about them just fucking and showing that they're so into each other. Um, but it is like I I was like, you kind of have this for two months, and then I think we're supposed to believe that they're happily ever after, after that kiss on the ice. But I'm like, I actually don't know how well you guys got to know each other.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Well, and then how much of that is well, they only had an episode for us to get to know their relationship.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Exactly. I'm very excited to read Game Changers and see how I feel. Um, and and hopefully that informs this episode a little bit more, and we can talk about that when we talk about that book. But for now, you know, we're we're going back to Holland off. We're gonna see what happens after we didn't even kiss. Oh, I'm so excited to talk about Rose.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

Yeah, talk about angst. We're gonna continue to have some angst. Oh my god, it's gonna be really fun. Okay, well, until next time, you deserve sunshine, and so does he.